Boundless Science Season 2: "Wire You Still Talking?" Cross Coat Breeding in Dachshunds

Welcome back to the Boundless Science podcast series, brought to you by Streaming Science, a student driven program that works to connect you with scientists to learn how science impacts all of us- and our everyday lives and interests. Tune in to this episode to listen to our host, Marisa Crowhurst, talk with dachshund breeder, enthusiast and professional dog show handler, Arvind deBraganca, about the genetics and beliefs surrounding cross coat breeding in dachshunds. Dachshunds come in three coat varieties: smooth, long and wire (get the title now?), and cross coat breeding is the interbreeding of the three varieties. DeBraganca has been breeding and showing dachshunds for over 20 years and brings incredible insight on this topic. #boundlessscience #season2 #BoundlessScienceseason2

Keywords: dachshund, cross-coat, breeding, cross coat breeding, genetics, pedigree, dog show, purebred, responsibly bred, preservation breeding, dog

Transcript

Marisa Crowhurst: [00:00:00] Welcome back to another episode of Boundless Science, brought to you by Streaming Science, a student driven program that works to connect you as scientists to learn how science impacts all of us and our everyday lives and interests. My name is Marisa Crowhurst, and I'm a master's student studying Agricultural and Natural Resources Communication at the University of Florida, and I am your host today.

Marisa Crowhurst: Today, we are discussing cross coat breeding in dachshunds, and we have with us dachshund breeder and expert, Arvind deBraganca . Arvind, would you like to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself? 

Arvind deBraganca: Hi, Arvind deBraganca , and I breed and [00:01:00] show standard smooth dachshunds, have exhibited all the varieties.

Arvind deBraganca: I am a dog show professional handler, which means I get paid for my services as well as a breeder owner handler, which means I show my own dogs that I make, you know, cradle to grave. 

Marisa Crowhurst: When were you first introduced to Dachshunds? 

Arvind deBraganca: I was 15 years old and I was at a dog show in Miami. So back then, which was three decades plus.

Arvind deBraganca: Miami was at the youth fairgrounds off of Tamiami trail, and they had a humongous dog trip. That's what back in the days when there was like 2, 500, 3, 000. And it was four days. It was greater Miami and South Dade. And I was down there and I saw a red dachshund named Connie. Her name was Champion Brayhouse Love Letter.

Arvind deBraganca: She was owned by a woman named Oti Jimenez, who bred her. And no, Oti dachshund, Love letters. That's what it was. I'm so sorry. And Oti bred her from Brayhouse Stock. And I was walking by, and she was just, like, it hit me. I saw her, [00:02:00] and it was like instant love. You know that, that moment that you find, like, your purpose?

Arvind deBraganca: And I saw her, and she was just this long, curvy, red, little corvette. I just, I was in love with her. So, Many, 

Marisa Crowhurst: many moons ago. 

Arvind deBraganca: Yeah. Three decades or so. But she was burning in my brain. And then, password 12 years later now I'm married, and my wife, I kept telling her I love dachshunds, I love dachshunds, and we ended up getting one.

Arvind deBraganca: We had two. Prada and Lucy. And that's how it all started. 

Marisa Crowhurst: Awesome. So what made Prada and Lucy so special? 

Arvind deBraganca: Well in the beginning they were special because they were mine. Yeah. Literally, that's all. I just wanted a dachshund. Now I had two. Fast forward into our breeding program. Prada, not so much. She was kind of common.

Arvind deBraganca: So every dog has a breed standard. And the breed standard basically depicts what is quality and what isn't. So it's like [00:03:00] architecture for dogs. You know, it's a blueprint. It tells you where things need to be, how they need to be shaped, and what places they need to be. And so when you're looking at an ideal specimen, it fits closer to the blueprint than maybe something not so ideal.

Arvind deBraganca: In the beginning, I was madly in love with my dogs because they're my pets, right? So you're clouded over not, you have two parts of your brain you have to use. You have to use the analytical part, which is the breeder brain where you analyze how to make a better dog and what to put together to make a better dog.

Arvind deBraganca: And then you have the owner companion part of your brain where if it was, you know, pigeon toed, cross eyed and humpback, you don't care because you love them. You know, that's your pet. You're emotionally connected. So that part has to be set aside where the actual scientific processing analytical part. So when we go back and look at the standard, Prada was mediocre at best and Lucy was outstanding.

Arvind deBraganca: So everything that we own to this day, which is I think eight generations straight, all go back to Lucy. [00:04:00] 

Marisa Crowhurst: That's amazing. So when you mentioned the breed standard, just for our listeners, what does a breed standard, is that correlated to the dog show? 

Arvind deBraganca: So, every breed was created for a purpose, and many hundreds of years ago when they were created, you have these guys that all got together, and they said, well, this is ideal, that's ideal, this is ideal.

Arvind deBraganca: So what they did is they put it to pen to paper. So now, the ideal dachshund, has an almond shaped eye obliquely set. It has a triangular shaped ear that reaches to the tip of the eye when pulled. It has X amount of Ts. Please don't ask me. The head is two pieces, the, from the muzzle to the to the stop, and the stop to the occiput is equal length.

Arvind deBraganca: And there's no perceivable stop, it's from the brow ridges. So the brow ridges are pronounced, so the head is almost one piece, right? And so the standard goes on to describe the length to the occiput. of the neck, the way the shoulders are laid back or the scapula is placed, it goes to describe the way, [00:05:00] the shape of the ribbing and the actual rib cage, you know, and so on and so forth.

Arvind deBraganca: So this standard now tells you what an ideal dachshund should be. And then the artistic side of the breeder creates the animal. 

Marisa Crowhurst: Well, thank you for explaining that, Arvind. So you said you have about eight generations of Dachshunds. How long have you been breeding Dachshunds? 

Arvind deBraganca: 23 years. 

Marisa Crowhurst: 23 years. That is quite a long time.

Marisa Crowhurst: What are some of your accomplishments as a Dachshund breeder, owner, and handler? 

Arvind deBraganca: So the biggest accomplishment is we've produced hundreds of family pets. So people have been able to enjoy The Dachshund breed. Healthy, sound animals that live well into their teens. The average age right now is about 16 to 18, somewhere in there.

Arvind deBraganca: But closer to 16, 17. So that's my biggest accomplishment, is providing amazing companions to people who love our breed and understand the breed. Now as far as a breeder, [00:06:00] we have, well we have four, ROMO, which is Register of Merit Outstanding. Which means like our one dog has a minimum of 20 champions with all the qualifiers, best in show winners, group winners, specialty winners.

Arvind deBraganca: My foundation, my true foundation, which is Abigail, Lucy's daughter, is an ROMO, as are many of her offspring and her grandchildren and so forth. So we have a bunch of top producers ROM, ROMX, which is Register of Merit, Excellent, Register of Merit, and then Register of Merit, Outstanding. We have multiples of those, which means that our breeding program is actually successful.

Arvind deBraganca: As in the show ring, we currently hold the record for the top best in show winning bitch or female. I'm not sure which one you want to say here, but technical term is bitch. So the top winning bitch in breed history of all coats. So the dachshund is one breed standard, but it allows for long, long haired wire haired and smooth, smooth being the original.

Arvind deBraganca: And then it has two sizes, which is 11 pounds and under constitutes a miniature and 11 pounds and up is a [00:07:00] dachshund. The average for a standard is 16 to 32 pounds, but anyhow, I digress. So we have the top best in show winning bitch in breed history of all three coats and both sizes. She has 12 best in shows, 19 reserve best in shows and 65 group ones.

Arvind deBraganca: We also have her niece, who is the second tied for second top best in show winning bitch, a smooth bitch in breed history with four best in shows, four reserve best in shows I don't remember how many specialties each of one, but And that was Shelly, so Abigail's granddaughter, Lucy's great granddaughter, and then Jana's and Abigail's daughter, Lucy's granddaughter, and then we have produced in the last decade or more number one dogs in all systems, in our ranking systems, and we have multiple group winners, multiple specialty winners, multiple top producers, we've sold dogs to other countries that have been top winners, we've sold dogs in the United States that have been top winners for other people, and gone on to produce well for other kennels.

Arvind deBraganca: So those [00:08:00] are the accomplishments. 

Marisa Crowhurst: That's amazing, it sounds like a lot of genetics at work there. Just for our listeners tuning in, can you explain what you mean by when you say a sound dachshund? 

Arvind deBraganca: So, sound is structurally sound and structurally sound means that they have good hips, good elbows good knees, good patellas, nothing luxating, nothing abnormal and we have to really work hard because in dachshunds, we are a short legged dog that carries the Now, last time I checked, I think there's 140 plus versions or modifications of the dwarf gene, genetically.

Arvind deBraganca: And when you cross some of the genetics, like the genes, the dwarf genes, when you cross certain ones, it be, it can be lethal, or they can amplify what one or the other is, as well as when you only use one, you know, have one version, you can breed it and not see anything. There's also [00:09:00] modifiers, so there's extreme dwarfism versus very mild, at least in dachshunds.

Arvind deBraganca: So it, it really is a matter of knowing that you have a dwarf gene, being careful not to double up on the dwarf gene. And also knowing that the dwarf gene is not such a horrible thing because as in humans, two dwarfs can have all normals, endorphin, and normal can have both, and two normals can have dwarfs.

Arvind deBraganca: And I, and I mean normal in the sense that non dwarf, not normal as in one's better than the other so that nobody gets offended. But that is what I mean by a sound dachshund, something that is physically and health wise sound. Heart conditions, eye conditions, so on and so forth. 

Marisa Crowhurst: Absolutely. One other clarification I would like for our listeners.

Marisa Crowhurst: Can you explain what you mean by a group one and a best in show for those who have never seen a dachshund before? So a dachshund, 

Arvind deBraganca: a dachshund works in levels. You have seven or eight classes now, and in those classes you win first through fourth. First place goes back in, and this is sex divided, dogs and then bitches.[00:10:00] 

Arvind deBraganca: So all the first place dogs go back in, they compete for winner's dog, which is for the points. And then you get a reserve, which is runner up. You repeat this for the bitch classes, and then you go in for best of breed. Best of breed is champion dogs and champion bitches, winner's dog and winner's bitch.

Arvind deBraganca: Any of them can be best of breed. Which is best of the breed today. Then you have best of the two winners, which is best of winners. That's either winner's dog or winner's bitch. And then you have best of opposite sex, two best of breed. That's not how we say it. We just say best of opposite sex. So if a dog wins breed, a bitch goes opposite and vice versa.

Arvind deBraganca: And that's open to everybody as well. The breed winner then competes on the group level. We have seven groups, sporting, herding, working, non sporting, terrier, toy, and hound. Hound. Duh. And so, the seven, in the seven groups, you have all the various breeds that fit into those groups. They are adjudicated, and then there is one through four in those seven groups.

Arvind deBraganca: First place in the seven groups competes for Best in [00:11:00] Show. So now we have Best in Show with seven dogs. One dog goes Best in Show, one dog goes Reserve Best in Show. So they pick Reserve Best in Show first. First runner up, the biggest loser at the end of the day, and then best in show, which is the final, boss.

Arvind deBraganca: So that's how that works. And we have won many, many, many, many groups, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of groups. 

Marisa Crowhurst: That's quite some accomplishments, Arveen. What is your kennel name, by the way? 

Arvind deBraganca: Passport, or house passport, as we're known. everywhere. 

Marisa Crowhurst: Perfect. So we got a little bit into genetics and today for our listeners, we wanted to discuss with you cross coat breeding and dachshunds.

Marisa Crowhurst: Can you explain to Megan, to our listeners, what is cross coat breeding? 

Arvind deBraganca: So again, earlier I had said that the breed standard is one breed standard. We have three coats, two sizes. So when we cross coat, it just means breeding the different coats to each other. Now what happens in non American countries is that they have.

Arvind deBraganca: specifically, like in Canada, we have, you have [00:12:00] actually three, two sizes, three coats, and they don't breed any of them together. So genetically those dogs are very, very much closed off, right? They become, they start to become individualistic in their characteristics. Here in the States, we have two sizes, three coats, but because we allow cross coating, We're able to keep a consistency of style, type, and quality of dog, if so chosen.

Arvind deBraganca: So many years ago, I bred my Abigail to a dog named Bubba. His name is Champion Glenoriff, maybe you should know. He's a standard long hair. So what I needed to add at that time was bone and substance and little less noise sensitivity, which is genetic and add better temperaments, more outgoing, which Bubba gave me.

Arvind deBraganca: Now, Abigail herself. was a standard smooth, and she did not carry the long recessive. We have genetic tests for this. So she did not carry the long recessive, which meant she was SS, [00:13:00] 100 percent smooth. Long is recessive to smooth. Wire is dominant to smooth. So a wire in all, for all purposes, a wire can actually be wire with SL.

Arvind deBraganca: Underneath it, like it can carry for both. So a wire is the only one that can carry smooth and long. A long is two genetic recessives. Long is long is long. You can breed long to anything and all you're gonna get is long. If you breed long to wire, all you're gonna get is wire if you breathe or possibly smooth.

Arvind deBraganca: But if you breed long to smooth and the smooth is not carrying recessive, it's all smooth. So we then produced a litter of smooths that carried the long recessive. Every one of them was a long recessive and so. What we ended up having from that litter was bone, substance, better temperament, it really improved.

Arvind deBraganca: Now, I moved forward with those puppies and bred them to smooths and kept incorporating them into my smooths lines. The recessive gene stayed and every so often we get a [00:14:00] recessive lung, but it's not a very common thing for 

Marisa Crowhurst: it. Definitely. So we spoke about genotype really with the recessive and dominant.

Marisa Crowhurst: How does that look like when you get a recessive lung or a recessive? 

Arvind deBraganca: So the recessive lung does not carry. Well, it depends. To be honest with you, a true recessive long, which is smooth breeding that carries a long gene for any period of time, a true recessive long does not carry lengths of coat. They carry a longer hair.

Arvind deBraganca: You'll see it on their ears, maybe on the back of their legs or tail, but it's never more than maybe an inch. And so it's not a, but it keeps that harsh outer coat with a soft undercoat that we're supposed to have the double coat, a true recessive long. Now, over the period of time, people have bred long to long to long.

Arvind deBraganca: And so they get smooth, softer coats, more hair, more hair, they're bred for more hair. When we, when you breed to a very hairy dog, recessive long, and you double up on that, you can actually get beautiful coats. But when you breed just recessive long, it comes out of too smooth, it usually looks just like a smooth minus [00:15:00] some fringing on its ears or tail, and it's very hard to discern.

Marisa Crowhurst: So it sounds like cross coat breeding can be beneficial within dachshunds however they do not allow cross coat breeding in the UK. Why do they not allow this in the UK? And why do they not agree with this practice similar with those breeders here in the United States who do not agree with this practice Of cross coat breeding.

Arvind deBraganca: Well, the problem is is I think it's ignorant some of it and now that we have much more genetic understanding and like knowledge, it's, it's hard to be ignorant, right? So in Europe, they keep them very separated and, and the FCI countries have six. They have three sizes and three, like they have, you know, their groups are like nine dogs.

Arvind deBraganca: Our, you know, UK has six different dogs. different ones, because again, they don't cross code. The problem is cross code. The thing with cross coding is it allows you a lot more genetic diversity and the ability to have keep a similar and more balanced look of the dog in all three codes, where some of these countries, the multiple coded, the different coded dogs and different sized [00:16:00] dogs look like different dogs.

Arvind deBraganca: They look like different animals because they cannot, their genetics aren't blended, right? Our genetics are blended. But then again, when you have these modifying genes and you have issues with, You know, a wire that carries a long recessive bred incorrectly can produce a soft coated wire, which basically is just a big fuzzy dog.

Arvind deBraganca: A wire coated dog, the hair is actually not shedding. It actually gets pulled out, it dies, like, and pulled out or brushed out, right? These soft coated dogs grow hair like a werewolf all over their bodies, you know what I mean? And so they're fuzzy and soft, and it's just not a good coat to maintain. Now, it's cute for people because they can shave it down and make it into cute little things like a doodle, but it's not or they might not be good for the actual breed as it was bred, because their purpose is to hunt, And they have to have that dual purpose hard outer coat that is weather resistant and, you know, briar resistant, et cetera.

Arvind deBraganca: But knowing how the genes work, understanding how modifiers work, understanding how Recessive work, and [00:17:00] having actual testing now, there's no issue, there should be no issue for cross coding. The benefits are to have a breed that is easily discernible as one breed with very little change. Our standard says that it's one animal and from a distance you cannot discern the difference between wires long or smooth.

Arvind deBraganca: Only upon closer examination can you see their coat difference. So they shouldn't be heavily coded, and it should be for a purpose, and I think when you cross coat, you allow the dogs to all stay looking the same with just different clothes. you 

Marisa Crowhurst: When you mentioned in the UK and in other countries where they separate the Varieties by coat and by size do they have different standards for each of those sizes and 

Arvind deBraganca: coats?

Arvind deBraganca: They don't they still have the same standard 

Marisa Crowhurst: interesting and So do you think as time goes on and we have this genetic testing that they're gonna be more open to doing cross coat breeding or even cross size breeding 

Arvind deBraganca: probably not probably not because Old habits die hard. 

Marisa Crowhurst: And we're about as stubborn as our dachshunds, right?

Marisa Crowhurst: Oh, 

Arvind deBraganca: [00:18:00] absolutely. Absolutely. And I, I just, I don't think they see any purpose to it. I don't think they see any purpose to it. Plus they don't have to think about the genetics of, of coat because they don't, that's something they worry about. Whereas we have to think about it. We have to learn, we have to grow, but they don't think about the genetics of dwarfism.

Arvind deBraganca: That's something that should also be incorporated. You know, right now. Because we have so much science behind us, we can eliminate eye problems. You know, macular degeneration, cataracts, there's so many testing, tests for that. We can eliminate heart conditions. We can eliminate dysplasia and other skeletal issues, right?

Arvind deBraganca: We even have x rays and testing for disc degeneration and IVDD. So because we have so many strides in science to help us with our dogs, there's very little that we can actually say out of ignorance these days, unless you choose to be ignorant, right? We even have COIs coefficient of inbreeding, in our pedigrees, [00:19:00] so we know how to diversify without causing issues.

Marisa Crowhurst: Very interesting. So you mentioned a lot of advantages to crosscoat breeding. And you mentioned the disadvantage of the coats in cross coat breeding, is there any other disadvantages you could see to potentially cross coat breeding? 

Arvind deBraganca: Oh, so many, so many. So, each of the varieties is unique unto themselves, right?

Arvind deBraganca: And how they came about. And so, longs have sweet temperaments. Wires are more terrier like. They're much more jaunty and they're much more bitable as far as hunting and stuff. And smooths, smooths can be very, very aloof, which is our original standard. You know, they stand their, they stand their ground, but they don't, they're not a friendly waggy dog.

Arvind deBraganca: So, You end up having these various personalities that don't always mesh well, you know, and you have, the disadvantages are because many breeders don't cross code. Sometimes their lines are stuck in a certain body [00:20:00] style. You know, wires tend to have a little bit more legs, smooth, tend to be a little longer hocked.

Arvind deBraganca: And there's a few other things that go back and forth. If you really picked at them, you would see a difference in three, you know, there's big differences. And so when you're cross coding, you have to blend all that together to produce a dog. That's much more. An assimilation of what the standard asks for, and an assimilation of the three varieties in various ways.

Arvind deBraganca: You know, and smooths I think are perfect, but longs have pretty heads and wires have harder heads. If you constantly making the three, you end up with a, a look that's maybe closer to the standard. You have to blend those various traits so that you don't have weirdness, which is not really technical term, but you know, it has to be visually pleasing. It has to be aesthetic as well as functional. 

Marisa Crowhurst: Absolutely. So with your extensive knowledge and experience in breeding dachshunds, and you obviously feel pro to crossbreeding, and you've done crossbreeding with Bubba and Abigail, have you done any other crossbreedings since then, or do you have any [00:21:00] plans in the future?

Arvind deBraganca: Jerry Gilpatrick many years ago used a dog of ours named Jace, which was her best in show, best in specialty show, Grand champion, gold, passports, do what you say. She had a wire bitch that was really lovely. I finished her championship. We went to a chase that had five champions, one pet. And from there, many people have successful wire breeding programs based off of those dogs.

Arvind deBraganca: There's a breeder in Washington named Shelley McGaw, and she has taken a wire bitch of ours to a smooth and had very successful outcrosses. And I think in the future we have, Since I have the ability to do it, we will. We've had very big success with our wires bred to smooth and smooth bred to wires.

Arvind deBraganca: And I feel that that's when people see these wires, they go, God, they're so beautiful. Well, yeah, they're just smooth with a rough coat. They look like my smooth dogs with rough hair. So of course we're going to keep doing it because it has one breed. It, it, it, it, it, Allows us unity. It allows us continuity and consistency.

Arvind deBraganca: So yes, [00:22:00] plans for the future are never to say no. 

Marisa Crowhurst: I mean, that's kind of what breeders strive for, right? You said, you know, unity, being able to look at a dachshund and tell it's a dachshund from far away. So if you have those wires that look like smooths from far away, that's ideal. 

Arvind deBraganca: Correct. And not just that, but you know, when people don't understand type, type is what is what our standard says they should be.

Arvind deBraganca: You know, almond shaped eye, round foot, thick pad, et cetera, et cetera. Style is how creative a breeder can be within those parameters and having the ability to discern. So when genetically, scientifically, okay, we do a lot of line breeding and we do a lot of inbreeding judiciously, a lot of line breeding, very rarely we do outcrosses and what that allows us.

Arvind deBraganca: is a type of recognition because our genetics are not so diversified and we have a family of dogs that are all not only related but similar in phenotype because their genotype is so close and we breed for an aesthetic. [00:23:00] So I think that's what also helps when you're doing cross coding and when you're making a name, a family, a genetic family of animals, is that people can discern that style no matter where you go or what it's out of because they know it looks or it is genetically stamped.

Marisa Crowhurst: So house passport has a look. 

Arvind deBraganca: Very much so. 

Marisa Crowhurst: So could you explain for our listeners some of the terminology you just used, line breeding, inbreeding, outcrosses, just so we can all understand. Outcrossing 

Arvind deBraganca: would be considered non related parents, grandparents. Unrelated parents, grandparents, maybe even great, great grandparents.

Arvind deBraganca: Like maybe, you know, one, having one commonality in great grandparents does not make it line breeding. Line breeding is uncle, niece, aunt, nephew first cousins, grandparents to grandchild. That's line breeding. Similarities in the pedigrees, close enough within the first two generations, but not extensively close.

Arvind deBraganca: And then inbreeding is, [00:24:00] father daughter, mother son, brother sister. Now where it gets complicated with inbreeding is if you have, if you take an outcross dog to an outcross bitch and you produce a litter of puppies, they're genetically 50 50 you know, on paper. If you did a brother sister breeding that way, it's genetically not as close.

Arvind deBraganca: Or, you know, there's more diversification than if you did like a father daughter to a mother son and then bred those together. There's just less, you know, because the two total outcrosses don't have allowed for a lot of diversity and you're just tightening it up. So it's, it's, once you put it on paper, you understand, but it's not always what it seems.

Arvind deBraganca: So, you know, hybrid or brother or sister, well, they were all complete outcrosses. And so that makes a big difference genetically. Consistency comes from line breeding and inbreeding. And. And really purifying and condensing those genetics. And it also allows you, when you do that sort of stuff, to find the recessives, [00:25:00] express them, and then eliminate them.

Arvind deBraganca: You know, anything that could be a fault, or anything that could be a weakness, you can find it, you can pinpoint it, and then you can verify it, and then you can eliminate it. So, it's like purification, it's like, it's like distillation of genetics. Out crossing didn't, it really is the worst thing to do.

Arvind deBraganca: I know it, people say, Oh, all this genetic diversity, but the problem is it, and it's like throwing anything at each other and hoping that the color matches, you know, taking a bunch of paint, throwing it on the wall and hoping you get the same color that you mixed with, you know, with the right portions and scientifically methodically mixed, or just taking those same base colors, throwing them against the wall and hoping that one of them, catches that same color.

Marisa Crowhurst: Right. So how many generations of reading would it take to remove a fault from your lines? 

Arvind deBraganca: That all depends, to be honest with you. Depends on the fault, depends on how it was introduced, and depends on what you want to do. Certain things you have to eradicate immediately, like you call it out. Now, [00:26:00] calling was a word that people always associate with killing, but it's not.

Arvind deBraganca: Calling just means to eradicate from or to remove from. So that could be a spay, neuter, and put into a pet home. It doesn't necessarily mean elimination of. you know, with death, just elimination of from reproduction. If you, you have a bad front and, or the shoulder blade isn't laid back properly, or the upper arm is too short, you can technically fix it by breeding to a better front.

Arvind deBraganca: But if you produce a bad front and perpetuate it, it takes multiple generations. It takes one generation to lose it, multiple to try to get it back. A rear end or the end of stifle to the hawk, the back end of the dog, that can be fixed within one or two generations. You know, different physical faults, depending on how structurally they, how hard it is, it's easier or harder to fix.

Arvind deBraganca: Genetically, you can knock things out quickly, because with all the genetic testing we have, once you find carriers, you bring carrier to carrier, you're doing it on purpose. I'm not saying it's wrong because if you have the ability to eliminate or cull out the effecteds, you could actually move forward with heavy [00:27:00] strides.

Arvind deBraganca: But most people bring non carriers to carriers, you know, you don't want to breed effecteds unless there's some real good reason, but otherwise you can eliminate a lot of the genetic issues because of a tele testing within a few, like one or two generations. 

Marisa Crowhurst: That's really impressive that you can get rid of those medical issues with some breeding.

Marisa Crowhurst: So we talked about cross coat breeding. Do you see benefit with cross size breeding, breeding standards to minis or vice versa? Absolutely. 

Arvind deBraganca: Minis need standards to improve their quality of structure. Structure is, should be the same in all of them, but people are trying to breed a tiny version of a normal, and so it's hard to shrink, right?

Arvind deBraganca: The normal sized dog, they're trying to shrink it down to a tiny version, and it doesn't always shrink down as well as you think. So sometimes you tiny dogs and breed them, Keep reading down the genes want to go back to what they came from. They want to go back to what is natural So minis are not technically natural.

Arvind deBraganca: They're just really tiny tiny, right? The genes want to go back to their norm So you're always [00:28:00] fighting them going back to their norm So you just have to conscientiously find little dogs and then add good structure and then keep doing it that way Not everybody does that. 

Marisa Crowhurst: Are there benefits that can be derived from the miniatures for the standards?

Arvind deBraganca: Truly? Not that I can see. 

Marisa Crowhurst: Well, it seems like we've had a long way, and a long journey and history of breeding in dachshunds. Do you have any final takeaways that you want to share with the audience about cross coat breeding, genetics, any of that? 

Arvind deBraganca: There are breeders. These are people who do genetic research, purpose, and functionality research.

Arvind deBraganca: They understand their standard with comprehension. They've read it, but they comprehend the words. Two very different things. And they make conscientious decisions to produce a quality animal and to preserve the purpose, function, make, shape, and outline of the doxin. or whatever breed you choose. [00:29:00] Those are breeders.

Arvind deBraganca: They take the time to produce quality, healthy animals, socialize them, raise them well, put them where they need to be, put them in homes, or keep the best behind for reproduction for the next generation. And then there are producers. These are people who just make a lot of dogs with no conscious decision or conscious effort to do better.

Arvind deBraganca: So I feel that with cross coding, with all the genetics we have and with Any dog breed in the future, the breeders are the ones that you need to look at for quality and to learn from. And I feel that producers will always give us a bad rap. So in going forward with cross coding and with cross size and with learning this breed, it's breeders and people who really care about preserving doxins for what they were meant to be that will use science along with practical thinking and common sense to preserve this beautiful breed.

Marisa Crowhurst: That is amazing. Well, thank you, [00:30:00] Arvind, for sharing all of your knowledge about dachshunds with us today, and we look forward to hearing about some future litters. 

Arvind deBraganca: Sounds good. Thank you so much for having me. 

Marisa Crowhurst: Thank you. Thank you for joining us on today's episode of Boundless Science. We hope you join us soon for the next episode.

Marisa Crowhurst: To find the rest of our series, go to StreamingScience. com. Make today great.